The "Gay" Debate: An Excerpt from a discussion about homosexuality and Salvation in Jesus Christ.

 Below is the text of a debate I had with a nice woman named Shirley in Facebook. She has a son who is gay and we got into a strong debate about the nature of homosexuality and Christianity. I am publishing this with her permission, to create further discussion on this very divisive issue. There are no 'winners' or 'losers' in our debate, but it did bring forward two very strong views. I leave it to you, my readers, to make up your own minds and, perhaps, create a forum for further ideas and comments on what is a very difficult and challenging subject.
The main point is: if a person is born homosexual, how does that relate to the issue of salvation?  How can or should a Christian respond? The comments we made may surprise you, may anger you, and maybe, I hope, provide further grounds for new ideas.
Please note that I never have or will advocate hatred or violence against gay people. The issue here is a moral one and the final arbiter on all that is God and the Word of God.
Please also note that the comments below are in the order they appeared during our debate, so it may appear a bit disjointed as she and I tried to match comments and replies, but often failed to. The spelling is corrected and, in one case, for clarification, I added to my original comments, signified by using these { } brackets.
Thank you.
I.M. Ulysses.

Originally posted on my blog, "In Defence of the Right," May 12, 2012

Please see -   http://defendingtheright.blogspot.ca/2012/05/gay-debate-excerpt-from-discussion.html

I.m. Ulysses
With respect, a Christian can show no more love to a person than to point out that sin is sin and that they need to repent and seek Christ Jesus for forgiveness. It is not 'hate' to be morally against so called gay marriage, it is to be Biblical, whether it is popular or not. There is a difference. Churches that cave in to political pressure to compromise the Word of God have lost, in my view, their mandate to preach or call themselves 'Christian.'

ORIGINAL POSTER (name withheld) -  Here's the thing, I.M. Ulysses, there's a saying about people like you: "Haters gonna hate". You can try to justify your prejudice and hatred on religious grounds all you want, but guess what? When you do so, all people hear you say is "Hey everyone! My God is a god of hatred, not a god of love."

I.m. Ulysses I understand why it would appear as 'hatred' but that is a very narrow view of things and highly judgemental of me personally too. God teaches me hatred is sin, and I have no reason to hate gay people. But God is also a just God and scripture is clear on the matter about homosexuality and salvation. {IF}You, nor I, nor anyone, do not repent of {OUR} sins and believe in Jesus, {WE} are damned. Those are not my rules, they're God's, and last I checked, there was no 'bye' given to gay people because they were born that way. It is not, therefore, 'hate' that motivates me to stand on Scripture but love for the God who saved me. The same God is saying to all sinners, gays included, 'all you need to be saved is to repent and believe in Jesus.' But all I hear is 'you hate gays' because I dare repeat Scripture, a Scripture that people reject because it conflicts with their notion of how God SHOULD operate, even when He doesn't. Its God's home, not mine, and He not I, have set the conditions for entrance. I am simply confirming them. If therefore I 'hate' or am a 'bigot' because I affirm those things, then your problem is not with me, but God. Ask Him. Or better yet read for yourself, my friend, and find out. If you don't have time, I understand. But please don't throw stones at me simply because I accept and affirm the Bible while others don't. That is not 'love' either but 'hate' too.

Shirley - I am the mother of a gay son and my son is a christian , he deals with so much anger and hatred that at times it is very hard on his spirit and his health.

Shirley - I.m people are born gay you can't become ungay , I.m when did you sit down with yourself and decide if you were going to be gay or straight? ... let me answer that for you , you didn't , you were probably always attracted to females , I'm assuming. Your friend is a gay man he may live with a female as a friend but he'll seek out men for love and passion and you know what ... that's okay because God created him that way

I.m. Ulysses I feel for you and your son. I've dealt with anger and hatred from others for a long time, even here, because I stand firm on God's word. I will pray for your son. The apostle Paul also struggled with his 'thorn in the flesh.' According to Scripture, he prayed that Christ would remove it, much like many gay people pray to be straight. But God said no, that His grace for him, Paul, was sufficient. He said 'my strength is made perfect in weakness.' Did Paul abandon Christ? Did he seek affirmation with others having the same thorn? NO. He felt humbled that God allowed him to carry that burden because though he was grieved, he understood that through his struggles God was glorified. As a Christian, we are told to 'take up our cross' and follow Jesus. Indeed we all have crosses to bear. But we also have Christ to guide us and help us with our burden. Your son has his and my heart goes out to him. For what comfort it may provide, know that he is not alone. Though I'm straight, I empathize because I was picked on and bullied because of my nose, my glasses,etc. But by God's grace I over came, without giving in and becoming like those who hurt me too. That is the secret here, to be better than those who torment you while still showing and keeping the love of Christ in your heart, and avoiding sin.
As for the rest, Christianity is incompatible with sin. We become Christians when we decide to abandon our own desires and seek new life, eternal life in Jesus. I cannot say to Him, 'Lord, I give you my old life, EXCEPT for my desire to continue having sex with lots of women, lying, getting drunk, and being bisexual because I was 'born this way.'' That doesn't work. You're a Christian only when you are convinced ALL your sins are evil and are able to bring them to Christ in repentance and forgiveness. There is no 'bye' because a person is 'born' or chooses to be 'gay' as we are ALL born sinners. Churches that say otherwise are FALSE because the don't affirm the truth of the WHOLE Word of God instead of only the things they like. Such false churches are full of enablers to help people continue in sin, rather than showing them how to find victory over it. Cain was told by God that if he did good, much like his brother, Abel, he would be accepted, but he had to master his sin. He didn't and killed his brother, much like political correctness and false doctrines threaten to kill the church. That's the devils game as he knows that false doctrines lead to false hope and false Christians, which leads to damnation. I pray you son is not caught up with those but is at a church where they understand his pain and love him too, as you do. I also pray they provide sound doctrine that teaches the sin of homosexuality and the support he needs to overcome it. Its a long struggle. My friend (name withheld) lived as a gay person. When it became clear that he could not live as a homosexual and be a Christian, he found a sympathetic church to help him overcome, with love, this great burden. It is still not easy but last I checked he was in a loving relationship with a woman. God bless.

Shirley - I.m., people are born gay period, there is no sin. I just don't get it why do you call these people liars someday there will be proof of this and then what will the church say? Or will you be like the fundamentalist Muslims that don't listen to reason and stone people to death.

Shirley - You need to seach Jesus on a personal level and if you are so brainwashed by a book than search the scriptures , search how the bible was put together , think outside of the box , you can't limit God to so many pages in a book that was loosely put together through man's politics and man's judgements

Shirley - you know I.m., people wouldn't hate you if you walked in love and kindness perhaps you should rethink your spirituality

I.m. Ulysses Sin is never OK with God, neither your sons or mine. I cannot walk in sin and be a christian or justify it before God. I can, however, struggle against it. That is the difference between a Christian and a Christian in name only. We were ALL 'born this way' as sinners. But we are also told to choose between our sin and God, and that God will help us when we repent. The enablers disguised as 'Christians' say otherwise. But God's word is plain. God bless.

Shirley - I.m, God created gays and lesbians to be gay and lesbian , there are even animals who are gay it is natural , it is normal and it is not sin , why would God create someone gay if he doomed them to hell. I.m I feel sorry for you I know you fear God and you fear hell , I hope you pray and ask God to show you the truth

I.m. Ulysses You know Shirley they hated Christ too. And if people want to hate me because I have taken a stand for the scripture instead of compromising it to be "liked" I CHOOSE JESUS and the Bible. I pray your son does too.

Shirley - they hated Christ because he opposed the leaders , Jesus was a peaceful person who never did talk about gays and lesbians isn't that ironic ? by all research that has been done Jesus was most likely an Essene , Paul did create Christianity , Paul the murderer and so much blood has been shed in his name.

Shirley - Jesus gave hundreds of instructions covering behavior and thought; but none of these dealt with same-sex sexual behavior.

I.m. Ulysses
I have shown you the truth I love, Shirley, and I pray you read scripture to show you better than me. Its easy to plug your ears and judge me and continue to believe what you want. It is better for you to accept the truth for yourself. I have no hatred for you or your son, and pray that you BOTH find the truth, instead of judging and perhaps hating me for trying to reveal it to you. I desire nothing more than salvation for you and your son, and have taken a huge risk to show you the truth so that you may have it. Reject and judge me, fine, I'm nothing; I'm sure you know from your son what that is like, ironically. Reject and judge Scripture or pervert it to satisfy your own ends, then you stand alone before God. And, with respect, I have not read anywhere in scripture that being 'born this way' is a justification. Sorry.

Shirley - there has been mistakes in translations you need to do some research on it , wouldn't it be wise to research and search God for the truth instead of clinging to what you want God to feel about gays and lesbians let me know if you ever want to deviate from your own bias and be open to the possibility that God doesn't condemn people for who they love , take care

I.m. Ulysses
They hated Christ because he showed them their own hypocrisy too. They claimed a superior knowledge and looked down on the common people. We have new pharisees this day, the politically correct, and they are as blind to the truth as their forebears. As for Christ being silent on gays, he was also silent on pedophilia, polygamy and many other things too. But the Apostle Paul and Moses, indeed God Himself, was and is not.

I.m. Ulysses
I don't condemn ANYONE Shirley, and it is rather self righteous to judge me as biased because I stand on scripture. The Bible as it is written is clear: homosexuality is a sin and like other sins, needs to be repented of. I'm NOT standing at the Gate of Heaven, keeping gays from trying to get in. I am a messenger saying 'this is what the Bible says. This is how to get in.' But people in this generation have convinced themselves now that the Bible must be flawed or interpreted wrongly, since 'God loves everyone, and all make it to heaven, except Hitler and those who are not politically correct.' Sorry not true. Repentance must precede forgiveness. I cannot be sorry for something without a desire to turn from it, else my apology is invalid and false. Saying to my bride that she should forgive me for sleeping with my neighbors wife 'because I was born this way' is the same trick many try to use with God. It is not repentance. It is not sincere. It is an excuse and a justification that implies its God's fault and so the person by virtue of that cannot be held accountable. Not true and only those with a weak understanding of scripture believe it, or those who do not want to genuinely change their ways and repent. Christianity is a struggle, pitting our flesh against our spirit, the spirit God gave us when we were born again. When you cease struggling, your flesh lives, but your spirit dies and that's when you are condemned.

Shirley - odd how the bible condones slavery I.m we don't do that today

Shirley - scripture has been mistranslated new research says that knowing what we know now about ancient language the whole bible should be rewritten , it will someday and if those changes don't condemn gays and lesbians will you change your heart ? only you know the answer to that

I.m. Ulysses
Amen. 150 years ago our American cousins were fighting to end slavery too and being killed by the thousands for it. But yeah Slavery is not condemned OR praised specifically in scripture, but slavery to sin IS. In other words, it doesn't matter if you are high born on earth, a king even, or a lowly slave, you can still find Christ, and Jesus will save you. He will free you from the bondage of sin, which is an eternal bondage, if you repent. If you don't, a slave you remain, both on earth and to sin as well.

Shirley -  can you list all the blasphemies in the bible such as women wearing pants or being allowed to speak up in church etc and then compare them to our lives today

Shirley - yes the bible did accept slavery and we do not today ... period and it did accept men having more than one wife we do not today , we change as a society we learn better therefore we do better it has nothing to do with the bible , men and women had morally before the bible

I.m. Ulysses
Shirley I have told you, I have no hatred towards gays or anyone. Why do you keep implying I do? Why are you unwilling in your heart to believe me? You say 'what if' the Bible is mistranslated would I change my heart? What about yours when I write to you? How can YOU 'mistranslate' my words and believe I am motivated by hate when I told you I'm only motivated by love and a desire for salvation for all? If you can answer my question, I'll answer yours.

Shirley - I think you are motivated by a fear of God and a need to be right , I do not think you hate gays I just would like you to be open to the idea that perhaps people are telling the truth when they say they are born gay that's all , just be open that it might be possible based on the fact that there are words and phrases in the bible that experts know are mistranslated ... that's it , just be open

Shirley - I've been on Facebook longer than I normally am and I.m just for your knowledge I am not a Pagan , I am a Catholic who mixes her path with her Native spirituality as Metis people traditionally do , I believe in Christ I just walk a mystical path and that means scripture isn't the way I communicate with him  I have got to go nice chatting bye

I.m. Ulysses
Right Shirley. Our society changed. But God has not, nor has he made any exceptions now for salvation. The bottom line is this; if you are a Christian, you affirm the voracity of Scripture and struggle, with God's help, to live according to it. If you are not, you seek a dodge and a 'new' Gospel, a man-made religion, a new god that affirms your sin, rather than one that says you must repent of it. I prefer the God of the Bible than the new politically correct one. You and many gays don't and if so, I wish they would stop trying to call what they believe as 'Christian' because its not.

Shirley - ORIGINAL POSTER sorry I took up so much of your page , I felt like I needed to discuss this issue with this Christian , it is believers like him that does drive many gays and lesbians to suicide and I always try and do God's will by trying to change people's perspectives but I know religious people are hard to change. I do follow a Catholic path but most Metis people follow a path that is more on the Red Road but it is flavoured with the love of the Mystical Christ ... miigwetch

I.m. Ulysses
Yes, Shirley, I fear God. He is holy and righteous and I'm a weak and sinful man. Without Jesus I'd be lost too. You say I 'need to be right' but I only need to be right before God, not you or anyone else. I cannot be right though except through Jesus, so I affirm His teachings and the teachings of scripture. Beyond that I have nothing to offer on the matter. As for the translation of Scripture, the first way a false religion justifies itself is to question the voracity of the Bible as it presently is. As a Catholic, I presume you read the same Bible I do, even though I'm a Protestant Calvinist. If therefore the Bible is wrong, both our faiths are wrong, there is no God and no Salvation, and no condemnation in hell. At that point it doesn't matter what you believe about gays or not, or sin or not. It would not change my reaction to gay people either since I have no hatred towards them. My view of marriage would change though since without a belief in an eternal God, marriage itself would be irrelevant too. Just a thought

I.m. Ulysses
And yeah ORIGINAL POSTER, thanks for letting me share with Shirley here too. I will pray for her son because I wish him no harm or evil. But the Bible is clear on this matter. I pray her son finds good counsel and supportive friends because repentance from any sin is not easy. It takes faith, and courage. He might have been 'born this way' but God says he can be BORN AGAIN in Christ as a NEW Creation. That is a message of hope and love and mercy. Not hate. God bless.

Shirley - ?*sigh* bye I.m.

I.m. Ulysses
Take care Shirley. I will continue to pray for you and your son. I'm sure he's a decent kid and you a decent woman. May God through Christ Jesus guide you both.