The following is the
debate I had with a woman on my friend's Facebook site, regarding the false
prophet and fake healer Benny Hinn. The names have been changed for the sake of
privacy and spelling cleared up to the best of my ability.
Lorraine We also need to test the spirits and fruit in the non Charismatic/Pentecostal
churches, too. For example, John MacArthur is a Calvinist and Calvin was an
actual murderer. (Which is worse-speaking in tongues or murdering someone?) The
Bible states clearly that no murderer has eternal life and that whoever hates
his brother is a murderer. (1 John 3:15). So, unless he repented, Calvin is not
in heaven. It's not just about being a good preacher and teacher-it's also
about living the life.
· I.M. Ulysses reply to Lorraine I was hoping to
avoid another debate but ok. I fully and honestly AGREE that we have to TEST
THE SPIRITS and no one, EVEN ME, is above that; everyone from John Calvin to
Benny Hinn if you really want to go there. Maybe my history is flawed but I was
not aware that John Calvin was a murderer. Please tell me where you find that
so I can look into it. But if you want to REALLY find out who was THE WORST MAN
EVER to be a preacher of the Gospel, let's go no further than one man who
murdered Christians constantly and felt darn good about it. He hunted them down
like dogs and worse! He no more 'lived the life' than he flew to Japan to buy
silk pajamas. Then...on the road to Damascus, this VILE CREATURE, MET GOD and
His life changed. THAT WAS THE APOSTLE PAUL. "For I am the least of the
apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the
church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was
bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all:
yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Corinthians
15:9-10). Now I don't know how you measure 'goodness' or 'badness' but if even
SAUL can be saved and become the great Apostle Paul, then you might want to
think about what you say about others. I discern by the WORD OF GOD ALONE. I
don't care how wealthy or poor someone is. I don't care how many hospitals they
built or how many charities they run. Muslims and pagans do no less in our
world. But they have no reward in the next because they do not believe by
faith, they follow other teachings foreign to Scripture, they lead others
astray and corrupt the word of God. As Jesus said " Many will say to me in
that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have
cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I
profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23). Just my thought.
Ginger I.M. Ulysses you
thrive on debates. Open up your own radio station 24/7 Christian Coast to
Coast. :P
I.M. Ulysses reply to Ginger Nah. I don't think Canada or Christendom is ready for
24/7 of me non-stop talking or debating. Besides, [my bride] has enough trouble
getting me to shut up now! :) I do believe we need to be ABLE TO DEBATE
"better," though, with facts and Scripture, and be more willing to
accept correction if we are on the wrong end of Biblical truth. Gosh, in my
case, I have always maintained that if I'm wrong by Scripture, I will happily
embrace the NEW ideas that are shown to me. That's why, over the years, I've
altered my views a number of times; not every week but maybe thrice in three
decades of Christianity. I'm talking about my views on Free Will, Women
'pastors,' the Pre-Trib 'Rapture', and even the question of the Spiritual
Gifts. In all cases, I changed because it was shown me, BY SCRIPTURE ALONE,
that the views I held were not valid. I saw how some of my views were warped
because I accepted the wisdom of those who told me, as a young Christian, that
it was 'ok' to view God's word in light of modern values and accept the prevailing
notions of the time. But then God sent someone who showed me how my thinking
had been altered. I realized then I was not rightly dividing Scripture.
Suddenly those sermons that I once thought were 'great' were actually full of
misconceptions and human, rather than Biblical, understandings. It was like I
got new glasses and could see clearly for the first time...and I didn't always
like what I saw. I had my "Road to Damascus" experience you might
say. I'm still on it, too, still willing to change my views if I can be so
shown by history; having done so before, it's easy to do so now. Why? Because
my first love is TRUTH. Yeah, I have an ego, too, Ginger, but my ego won't save
me, only God's truth will. So, then as now, I go into a debate with the idea that
I may be wrong..and if wrong, it is better to change my mind than be all 'Greek
and stubborn.' [My bride's mom] knows how 'stubborn' I can be...but she only says that
because I won't agree with 'her' views. I always said I would IF IF IF she can
find scripture to back her ideas up. She can't or won't...so "I'm"
the stubborn one. And it doesn't matter if I show her scripture for my view.
Nope. I'm just being 'contentious.' The saving grace of it all is that I
genuinely love this woman and she does me. In fact we both enjoy 'going at it'
even while [my bride] squirms uncomfortably :) I totally get that, too; her mom is one of the sweetest
women alive. But she never developed the 'gift' of critical thinking, and
neither have many Christians either. So instead of being a sincere debate among
brothers and sisters, it gets personal...and then you are left with trying to
soothe hurt feelings instead of joining sides on the stronger position and
going after the enemy from there. Like I said, I've done that. John will tell you
too that a smart general or captain on the field of battle recognizes the
stronger position and moves his troops over to it. It's not easy but when you
can attack and defend without worry about being hit, you feel much better, Just
a thought :)
· Lorraine reply to I.M. Ulysses Paul did indeed kill BEFORE he was converted.
He did not kill after he was converted. One can be very religious, do good
deeds, know and teach lots of Scriptures (as Paul and other Pharisees, Sadducees,
did) and yet still have a heart that is not right before God. Jesus said even
sinners do good to those who love them but that we are to love even our
enemies. Love doesn't kill people. Paul was "sure" he was defending
the truth, that Jesus was false. Many are "sure" they are right but only
Jesus is right. The Bible is clear that no murderer has eternal life and that a
little leaven leavens the whole batch. If Calvin repented, like Paul did, then
he would be able to go to heaven but it doesn't appear that he did. (unless
perhaps in private at his death?) It is indeed true that many will come and say
they have prophesied, cast out demons and be found false because they did evil.
Not that prophesying or that casting out demons is evil-otherwise the apostles
were all evil. No, it is the other things-of people not obeying Jesus'
teachings- and that is for all people whether they have the gifts or not. Being
a murderer is definitely a big sin. All sins can be forgiven but they have to
be repented of and confessed to God. Here's a link to a book that might be of
interest: http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt...
·
I.M. Ulysses Reply to Lorraine thanks for
clarifying your point. Did you read the book yourself, or are you just throwing
this out as proof? One reviewer who did said this, "One of the greatest
men in biblical history was a murderer! Not only him but the man after God's
own heart - King David - was also a murderer. Many godly men of God had plenty
of dirt on them but did that make their testimonies any less valid or
legitimate? If you are trying to cast dispersion and doubt on Calvin because he
may have been guilty as you charge him then you must do the same for all of the
great men of the bible that were less than pure and therefore you must discard
the entire Bible as unreliable! The imperfectness of the vessel does not necessarily affect the purity of what
is poured out of it. Calvin certainly was less than perfect but the truth of
what Calvin taught was witnessed and validated by the scripture, itself being
the Standard of truth, therefore by slinging mud at him you are just losing
ground. The truth is the truth regardless of the messenger. If it isn't then
nothing in the Bible can be trusted. There are no perfect vessels. No one is
sinless and apart from God all of our good works are as filthy rags. If you use
the same logic against Moses, David, Paul, etc. that you are using against Calvin
then they too were "wolves in sheep's clothing." A perfect gospel
delivered by imperfect men."
I could not say that better myself! We can
argue the truth all we want of the death of Michael Servetus, call it judicial
'murder' or we can say that it was a just punishment for heresy. What I know of
Servetus is that he WAS A HERETIC, who was against the Trinity and other ideas.
If the crime was blasphemy and he was executed for it, then I maintain that
Calvin, as a leader there, had that right and is not guilty by the fact that
enforced the law. It makes the state no more 'guilty' of 'murder' for EXECUTING
me if I did a crime than it does Calvin. If you want to lay this charge at
Calvin's feet and use it to colour his teachings, which are far more sound than
anyone writing these days, GO AHEAD. Remember to charge Martin Luther, the
founder of the Reformation with the crime of Anti-Semitism which may have led
to the Holocaust. There are other you can so disparage if you want, even if
their doctrines were sound. But as for me, I will not judge this imperfect man,
John Calvin; God will. I will judge his words though against Scripture, as I do
Benny Hinn's and others because I care about DOCTRINE. Likewise I study
Calvin's teachings because they are biblically sound. Many ministers these days
would do well to follow them, I think. How many of them will, likewise, be
guilty for 'murder' of the souls they lead astray by their false claims and
presumptuousness? Either way, be it as you will. If you want to use this as a
justification to reject Calvin and follow Hinn, go head. You know my views on
that and I stand by them. Peace.
Lorraine reply to I.M. Ulysses Moses killed once when he was still in
Pharaoh's house and was not yet called as a servant of God. Later
"he" ordered the killing of many who were sinning-who refused to be
on the side of the Lord, as evidenced by the miracles. Yes, he was one of those
who prophesied, had signs/wonders, healings and talked to God directly. (That
is not to state that everyone today who claims to have signs, healings is but
one must find out first for themselves before dismissing them) David sinned and
as soon as the prophet Nathan (yes, prophets have been part of the Bible all
along) told him, David repented. My question is-did Calvin repent? You can
start out right but end up wrong. One of my reasons for leaving the Anglican
church was due to my realization that Henry Vlll was a murderer. I personally
have no desire to follow anyone's teachings who ended up being a murderer. I
have the Bible. I find it difficult to believe that anyone who would kill
someone else truly fears or knows God-who is the judge that said "Thou
shalt not kill". Once people start excusing one kind of sin, they will
eventually start allowing for other sins. And no-I didn't read the book-just
some of the reviews but I have read some other things.
Ginger comment to I.M. Ulysses Ulysses, [your wife] will get mad
I.M. Ulysses reply to Ginger I know but Lorraine
does make an interesting point. I HIGHLY disagree with her but I find how
people debate to be interesting. We all have our Christian 'idols' and,
frankly, I think 'mine' is far more interesting that hers; Calvin, after all,
was a great Reformer, Hinn is just a showman and has been shown to be a false
prophet 100 times over. Personally I believe Hinn may BE a nice guy; I never
said he wasn't. But Calvin's doctrines rip holes in Hinn's view so large you an
shove a mountain through them. But that's probably immaterial to many people
taken in by shysters. In fact it was prophesied: "All these are the beginning
of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:
and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be
offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many
false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:8-13) Anyhow. there is little than
can be done. People will be taken in by heresies and trickery and no amount of
Biblical truth can shake them. [My bride] wonders why I even try. I try because I
care, even if that care is in vain. Oh well. )
I. M. Ulysses reply to Lorraine I'm [don't] fully agree with your statements. I think
we have to discern between the act of judicial execution and murder. I know
Calvin didn't murder anyone himself. Was he part of "a plot" to
murder Servetus? Maybe. Or maybe he wasn't? If we take Moses example, or
David's, and see John Calvin as carrying out justice, violent though it be,
against a heretic, I am less inclined to be hard on him. In fact I could say it
was too bad Servetus was not born 400 years later when the punishment for
heresy was probably a book deal, a movie, and thousands of screaming kids vying
for his autograph. As it stands, he faced the justice at the time he was in.
That demanded his death and Calvin consented to it. I see no murder here in
that Servetus was given a trial and a chance to repent/recant his doctrines.
Calling that 'murder' is really stretching it. I do see a DOUBLE standard
though, in that Reformers themselves were being killed by the Catholics too but
I don't want to get into that. The point not disputed is Servetus was a heretic
and faced a heretics punishment. That is justice, not murder. Too bad for
Servetus. But I see Calvin's hands clean and therefore the question of him
needing to 'repent' is moot, the same way the governor of Texas's hands are
clean simply by allowing murderers to be executed in his state. He has the
responsibility but that is far different than being guilty of killing anyone. I
also don't see how that would have any bearing on Calvin's doctrines, either,
which are sound. If you left Anglicanism because of Henry the 8th, well that is
your decision. Still, talk about holding a grudge though; 600 years??? Personally, I would only leave a
church because the DOCTRINES were off and they were not following Scripture.
What they did before is not as important as what they are doing now. Just my
thought.
P.S. I missed the word 'Don't in my
first statement, as in [Don't] fully agree with your statements. Just to clarify.
Peace. [I added it here on the blog in brackets]
Lorraine reply to I.M. Ulysses I did write in one of my previous comments to
you that I am not a follower of Benny Hinn. I hope I have finally matured past
the need for any Christian "idols". My devotion is to the Lord-to try
to stay true to the Scriptures, which includes accepting that the gifts are for
today. I can see Benny Hinn's errors but also how the Lord uses him to bring
salvation and healing to many all over the world. I did post a video on the
other post to show you what Benny Hinn presents as a message about salvation
but you said you wouldn't watch it. Funny how you would be so condemning of
Benny Hinn's errors but not Calvin's murdering a "heretic". You
support the idea that others like King David and Calvin can be imperfect but
not Benny Hinn? And no-I have no "grudge" against Henry Vlll but I
desire to walk as the Lord said to-with clean garments so I have to be careful
as to which doctrinal teaching I listen to. Jesus taught that a little leaven
ruins the whole batch. The Anglicans were probably afraid of being killed, too
and the church continued. His sins have continued-unlawful divorces, abortion
are accepted-going on to homosexual clergy, now too. Jesus said that if we
teach and break just one of his commands we will be called least in the kingdom
of heaven.
· I. M. Ulysses reply to Lorraine I do remember you saying you are not
a follower of Benny Hinn. But didn't you also say you went to live under his
'teachings' too? I'm a bit confused. Either way I won't watch a Benny Hinn
video any more than I would watch a video of moss growing on a tree; I see
nothing of value in this man. If God can use him, good. I'm also reminded that
God could speak through the mouth of a jackass as He once did through Balaam;
but you won't catch me talking to jackasses any time soon either. So, no, I'll
stay clear of Benny Hinn and be quite happy to do so, thank you very much. AS
for Calvin, I reject the charge of 'murder' as a deliberate libel and slander.
He is no more guilty of murder than Texas's governor is for not stopping an
execution of a justly convicted man and heretic, AS I SAID BEFORE. As for
condemning Hinn and not Calvin, I think I pointed out that Calvin was a GREAT
REFORMER if a flawed man; Hinn is neither. Not killing someone or being charged
with that does not automatically make you a saint. Hinn's false doctrines have
probably shipwrecked more souls than any modern preacher today; and I'm
astounded he still has any kind of following at all. Calvin, for all his
faults, was never unbiblical and helped us to understand many of the great
truths we all hold too today, Hinn warps doctrine, makes false claims about
himself, and will not go back on it. He has not withdrawn his false books from
publications and still reaps money from them, fleecing the flock to this day,
'repented' or not. Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religions helped draw
millions of souls from the false doctrines of Catholicism and still exercise a
great power to save souls to this day. To compare, therefore, Hinn to Calvin is
ridiculous to the point of mockery. Anyhow, as for good old Henry VIII, I was
kinda pulling your leg there (
) and I agree with your views in terms of this King's violation of the laws
against divorce, homosexuality etc. I just don't believe we need to judge the
children by the sins of their fathers. There are many many reasons, all
doctrinal, for leaving Anglicanism as there are for me to depart Greek
Orthodoxy. I just don't think we need to go 600 years into the past to do it.
If so, we risk questions about the validity of Protestantism in general. So,
for the record, I'm glad you left Anglicanism but I hope you did so based on
questions of Doctrine and not because old King Hank was such a jerk. Peace.
Lorraine reply to I.M.
Ulysses Sorry for the delay in replying. Yes,
I am not currently a follower of Benny Hinn (Benny was instrumental in teaching
us how to look at the Lord only, rather than a preacher) but at one time we
were very interested in learning from him. After attending meetings and seeing
the people healed and feeling the presence of God like I'd never felt in any
church, we got very interested in wanting to be part of what God was doing in
these days. We noticed that the Lord was using him in the area of healing more
than anyone else we'd heard of back then. We didn't want to have to look back
at our lives and say "I wish I'd been there when these things were
happening-like in the Book of Acts". We'd already been filled with the
Holy Spirit but were frustrated at the lack of many genuine healings in the
churches we attended. I knew they were for today as I had been healed myself
already. Ask yourself-does God only use perfect people for the gifts? No-the
people in the church at Corinth needed correction but had the gifts. The apostle
Paul had to rebuke even the apostle Peter about his doctrine/behaviour
(Galatians 2:11). And today there are a lot of people the Lord could use
(people like you?) who might have fewer character flaws but they, like you,
don't want anything to do with the gifts so God has to work with those He has.
My husband and I have discussed many times "Why does God use so and so
when he's done such and such?" I think the answer is simply that they are
willing to leave their families, wife, careers, homes to go out into some of
the most dangerous places in the world to preach the Gospel and they do not
deny the Holy Spirit or His gifts. You make strong statements about Benny Hinn
yet you haven't been to one of his meetings and won't even watch a YouTube of
him teaching. Why? Why do you avoid not just Benny but it seems like anyone who
claims to have healings? Do you follow the instructions in the Book of James to
get healing for yourself or your wife? Here's a link to an article about Calvin
that might be of interest? http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/john-calvin.htm
I. M. Ulysses reply to Lorraine - The Lord is not using Benny Hinn,
Trust me. Heck trust everyone who has examined him. This is a man who predicted
the return of Christ TWICE, whose 'miracles' are ALL FALSE, and whose doctrines
are pretty much whatever he makes up on any day. I'll include a link below from
Wikipedia. Years ago I saw The Fifth Estate report on him, using hidden
cameras. This fake 'healer' shunted away genuinely crippled people from his 'crusades'
and only included those whose 'healings' were the kind that all fake-healers
love, the kind that cannot be proven. He's no more a Christian man than he is
Chinese. He is a fraud. He fleeces the sheep. He lies. He paid money to keep
his son from being charged with assault. How much more do you require before
you understand that this IS NOT A MAN OF GOD???! It's been documented
REPEATEDLY. But you, despite claiming to be Spirit-filled, cannot discern this
and that makes me sad. But I understand. I understand that some of the most
sincere people are also some of the most blind, who follow their emotions,
which they confuse with following the Holy Spirit. With respect Lorraine, I
know LOTS of people who have gone this way, who felt they were 'filled with the
Spirit' and did all kinds of wacky things, only to find out later that it was
not the Holy Spirit that was speaking to them, but their own desires and it
breaks my heart. But you have to learn this for yourself. You have to learn
that God didn't just give you emotions, He gave you a mind and you must use it
to be effective too. I know you can, because I sense you are a sweet woman,
with a genuine heart for people. It's the kind of person frauds like Hinn love,
and who frequent his campaigns, looking for a miracle...but getting none. I
pity Hinn and his fate. God may be "USING" Hinn. But if so it is to
TEST people, to reveal the weakness of their doctrine and sift their minds, and
really know if they will follow God or frauds like Hinn. "They profess
that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and
disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16) . So,
again, I don't need to watch Hinn to know he's a fraud and an agent of deceit
and evil, any more than I need to open Hustler to know it is a porn magazine
and godless. You can tell by the covers quite easily, if you have any
discretion at all. And I've done more that look at the covers; I've studied the
foundations, seen the videos, read the testimonies and they prove one thing;
THIS MAN IS UNGODLY AND SHOULD BE SO MARKED FOR HE WALKS CONTRARY TO THE FAITH
(Romans 16:17). That's all I want to say about this fraud; I'm tired of
repeating myself.
As for the Gifts of the Spirit, I never denied them and I do not deny that God equips and calls people to work. I just claim that I have never seen a genuine, Bible miracles of the sort people expect at these 'healing' events. I've seen imitations. I've seen people sincerely try to 'get healed' but never happened. I've seen people spouting off gibberish and claiming it was tongues but no language that can be discerned and no interpreter to validate it. I've seen false prophets stand up and make claims that ONLY they, conveniently, can 'see,' such as the woman who claimed to see angels. In short I've seen false false false men claiming gifts and acting presumptuously and have a large following, while simple men who preach the pure gospel message get ignored and their congregations wither and die. By the same token, I've seen people, simple people, pray for me and my family and we get a healing or a prayer answered. I've seen my brother recover from near death with the help of doctors and those same prayers. I've managed to meet the most lovely woman I know, and move from Alberta after 29 years to my native Ontario because someone loved me enough to pray for me. I've seen and done things that I know I should not have done but for God's mercy, as I know the same of others too.
You want a 'miracle?' Look around you, Lorraine. Every day we are here is a miracle, showing God's grace in that He has not brought judgement upon all our heads for our sins. His forbearance, His love, is manifest all around us, that we might learn and grow and be perfected in the faith. And all He want of us is to worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH; you cannot do one without the other. Anyhow here's the link on Benny Hinn as mentioned above. Go to the Controversy Section and you will see a number of his false claims and evidence that he is as fake as a 3 dollar bill. Please open your eyes and use your discernment. Or heck, just use your eyes and believe the FACTS as they are. God bless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn
As for the Gifts of the Spirit, I never denied them and I do not deny that God equips and calls people to work. I just claim that I have never seen a genuine, Bible miracles of the sort people expect at these 'healing' events. I've seen imitations. I've seen people sincerely try to 'get healed' but never happened. I've seen people spouting off gibberish and claiming it was tongues but no language that can be discerned and no interpreter to validate it. I've seen false prophets stand up and make claims that ONLY they, conveniently, can 'see,' such as the woman who claimed to see angels. In short I've seen false false false men claiming gifts and acting presumptuously and have a large following, while simple men who preach the pure gospel message get ignored and their congregations wither and die. By the same token, I've seen people, simple people, pray for me and my family and we get a healing or a prayer answered. I've seen my brother recover from near death with the help of doctors and those same prayers. I've managed to meet the most lovely woman I know, and move from Alberta after 29 years to my native Ontario because someone loved me enough to pray for me. I've seen and done things that I know I should not have done but for God's mercy, as I know the same of others too.
You want a 'miracle?' Look around you, Lorraine. Every day we are here is a miracle, showing God's grace in that He has not brought judgement upon all our heads for our sins. His forbearance, His love, is manifest all around us, that we might learn and grow and be perfected in the faith. And all He want of us is to worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH; you cannot do one without the other. Anyhow here's the link on Benny Hinn as mentioned above. Go to the Controversy Section and you will see a number of his false claims and evidence that he is as fake as a 3 dollar bill. Please open your eyes and use your discernment. Or heck, just use your eyes and believe the FACTS as they are. God bless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn
· Lorraine reply to I.M. Ulysses I do agree that Benny has prophesied falsely
but I also know that people do get healed at his meetings. So, people who say
these are done away with are teaching falsely-false teachers Jesus warned
about? I've been there and I know people who were healed through his ministry.
(as I already told you) As Benny said on the one tape you posted, he's been in
ministry over 30 years -you can't "fake" healings like that for over
30 years-holding meetings several times each month. Anyone can see they are
real, if they are not too prejudiced to watch. But I think this video Ginger
posted has an answer when he said that people can start out in the gift but
then get in the natural, feeling like they have to perform for the people. And
I've seen the Fifth estate program, too. What people don't understand is that
Benny cannot heal whoever he wants. He simply allows the Lord to use his hands
to heal whoever the Lord wants to heal. So, yes, people come to the meetings
and some get healed, others don't. I heard one lady say she had to go to 11
crusades before she got healed. Benny used to have a number of doctors present
at his crusades and they would always examine the people before they got on
stage to verify their conditions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtQTAl_BlV8 I know Benny is
not like he used to be and I pray he would repent of those things he does that
are wrong but the healing crusades I have been to have been incredible to
see/experience.
Ulysses reply to Lorraine you're a sweet woman, Lorraine but you are blind too.
THERE IS NO EMPIRACAL EVIDENCE OF ANY HEALING DONE BY BENNY HINN. ZIP, NADDA
NONE. Your video certainly provides none. There are no outside sources to
confirm it, but plenty to confirm his false claims and his false prophesies. I
don't also don't buy that " Benny cannot heal whoever he wants. He simply
allows the Lord to use his hands to heal whoever the Lord wants to heal."
THAT IS such a LOAD OF CRAP! Where in the Bible, did God's true ministers every
NOT HEAL someone who came to them? They didn't say 'gee, you might be healed or
you might not, it depends on God.' A gift of healing is not a conditional gift,
it is a permanent one according to Romans 11:29. If you have the gift, it acts
the same way as it did in The Bible, else how would you know it was from God?
Benny has none and so he finds ways of excusing it, instead of admitting he
can't, and as that TV program revealed. Of course he would never admit it; he'd
save his soul but lose his livelihood, fleecing the sheep...and for a man as
shallow and false as Benny, that is not a trade he wants. Still, you keep
making excuses for this false man and it breaks my heart. Beyond that, how can
you have seen the TV program I saw and STILL not see Benny as the false man he
is? Either way, Lorraine, I'll pray for you because you are a sweet woman, who
is clearly beguiled by this fraud, like many others no doubt.. It's why so many
mock the charismatic movement and find it easy to accept the gifts have ceased.
God bless.
Lorraine reply to I.M.
Ulysses Please tell me -did you watch the video I just
posted, the whole clip? (it's quite short) And No-Jesus did not always heal
everyone who came to him as it states in Mark 6:5-6 "Now He could do no
mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and
healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief". In another
passage , in Matthew 17:19-21, it says " Then the disciples came to Jesus
privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.” Notice in the first case, the lack of healing was due to the people's unbelief, in the second it was due to the apostles' unbelief. And the need for prayer and fasting to go along with the gifting. -some more proof or do you think that all these people on the many videos available are liars? http://www.youtube.com/watch...
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.” Notice in the first case, the lack of healing was due to the people's unbelief, in the second it was due to the apostles' unbelief. And the need for prayer and fasting to go along with the gifting. -some more proof or do you think that all these people on the many videos available are liars? http://www.youtube.com/watch...
· I.M. Ulysses reply to Lorraine You missed the first part of your note on
Mark: Mark 6:4 (says) "But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but
in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. " When
Jesus spoke in these verses he was returning home to His people, the land where
he grew up. It DOES NOT SAY he "did not heal. It says ONLY that he could
'do no mighty work.' It does say, IN THE VERY VERSE YOU QUOTED, that "
that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them." (Mark 6
verse 6) "ARE YOU SO BLIND YOU MISSED THAT??!! Does Benny ever do that,
even if he is visiting 'his own country?' When has this evil fraud ever just
'laid hands' on someone and they instantly RECOVERED, even when he was 'among
his own kin" and in his own 'country?' NEVER! It is NOT documented or
proven ANYWHERE! And now you compound your error by misquoting scripture, to
make excuses for a FALSE PROPHET! And you call yourself 'Spirit filled?' The
Bible Says the Holy Spirit TESTIFIES of Jesus among other things. Yet now YOU
DENY JESUS HEALED when HE DID, and expect me to believe you are 'spirit
filled'? ("And No-Jesus did not always heal everyone who came to him as it
states in Mark 6:5-6" - your words!). Clearly HE DID. He just couldn't or
wouldn't do any 'mighty work' which suggests that Healings were relatively
simple for Him and REAL apostles. They are IMPOSSIBLE for Benny because he is
not a 'real' apostle and he has no gifting. And worse, kind people like you are
now defending him by LYING about Scripture that is in front of you! No offense,
Lorraine, but you really need to have a long talk with Jesus, as do many who
follow false signs and wonders by charlatans like Hinn. I hate to burst your
bubble but I'd rather you see the truth than keep following a lie and make a
shipwreck of your soul. God bless.
I have seen plenty of videos like this and they prove NOTHING. I have
also seen The Fifth Estate video about him and that proved that HE IS A LIAR
and A FALSE PROPHET (you did too, you said, and you still defend this false
prophet). I have seen other websites that validate this truth that he has done
no miracles and no healings. I have seen people fall back, like the typical
charismatic thing but that too is unbiblical; where did anyone 'fall back' when
they were healed? It's a fraud, all of it. The devil can deceive you with your
eyes but he cannot deceive you with the Word of God, which you seem to have
traded for 'experiences' and trusting in false prophets like Hinn.
·
IN regards to what Matthew wrote about Jesus in Matthew 17:19-21, you
conveniently missed verses 16-18 which says " And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus
answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be
with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus
rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from
that very hour." Apparently the Apostles failures to heal this child from
a demon was in large part their lack of faith, I agree. BUT JESUS HEALED IT
IMMEDIATELY! Again, accusing Christ of not being able to heal...IS WRONG, to
saying nothing of SINFUL. Regarding this Apostles failure to heal, I think we
can engage in a lot of speculation here, such that things were different before
Christ's resurrection and Pentecost too. But I do not want to engage in that
without further study so that I can present a Biblical reason. WHAT IS
interesting to note, however, is that it was NOT the Child's 'lack of faith'
but the Apostles. This is actually an indictment against Charismatic's who say
the 'failure' to be healed is the 'sick persons' fault. In truth it was the
APOSTLES FAULT - Jesus had no trouble healing this child. And don't try to
twist scripture and say this was a 'progressive' healing either; the child was
healed from 'that very hour' or immediately. Perhaps the demon, like others we
have been shown in scripture, struggled to get out of the child but it was gone
and 'from that very hour' it was healed or that very moment. Benny and Co.
cannot do that. But then Benny cannot do anything as he is a fraud and tool of
the devil, deceiving people with false signs that there is no concrete evidence
of.
Regarding that last video, with that man sitting by the stool (yes I saw
part of it), that proves nothing. As you saw on the Fifth Estate video, Benny
does not bring to the stage those who deny his 'power.' I have a link to a
video of Benny speaking - classic Benny lies. One person, who responded to the
video, said "I BELEIVED IN BENNY AT FIRST TIME,,BCOS I TRUELY BELEIVE IN
GOD, HOLY SPIRIT N JESUS. IF U HAVE REAL FAITH IN JESUS, U CAN DO MIRACLES. I
BELEIVE THT.......BUT.........LATER ON WHEN I REALIZED ABT BENNY HINN'S LUXURY
LIFE STYLE...MAN HE IS DEVIL...OH! JESUS PUNISH HIM..HE IS TAKIN ADVANTAGE IN
THE NAME OF HOLY SPIRIT N HE IS CHEATING PEOPLE...JESUS IS MY LORD..I BELEIVE
IN HIM. NOT IN FAKE BENNY." Go ahead...look at the dark side of the agent
of satan, who makes unsubstantiated claims, fleeces the flock and says the most
ridiculous and unbiblical claims! Defend him if you want but the more you do,
the less credible you become. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKCMl2XzTs
Lorraine reply to I.M. Ulysses You didn't answer my question- if you
watched the videos I posted? Or do you watch only videos that are deliberately
staged to misrepresent Benny and the work of the Holy Spirit? Are you a
follower of John MacArthur? You seem to get too angry when you read my posts
and you seem to miss reading them correctly. I never said Jesus could not heal.
That's absurd. But he only did what he was told to do by His(our) Father in
heaven. Jesus never operated independently of the Father. The Scripture I
quoted says "he healed a FEW". Clearly that states that Jesus did not
heal everyone who was sick there. When he healed only one man at the pool of
Bethesda, there were many other sick people there, too, waiting to get a
miracle. Yet there were also times when Jesus did heal everyone-that was God's
will for those occasions. You said the gift means everyone will be healed. So
the apostles ran around healing everyone who was sick? Obviously not. I also
did not say that it is the person's unbelief only-sometimes it was and sometimes
the unbelief of the apostles and lack of prayer and fasting(as I already said).
In James it says that the faith of the elders praying for the sick person will
make them well. You say Benny has never laid hands on someone and they
instantly recovered but yet you refuse to watch any videos or accept testimony
that supports that. And nowhere does it say that the apostles healed everyone
or that only apostles can heal. I know you think you're right but you should be
more concerned with your own soul in accusing Benny Hinn and others. I also
have many concerns about the way many people teach/act/live who all say they
are Christians but I can tell you I've learned that the best thing to do is to
pray for all those you are concerned about-not attack them and focus on trying
to be perfect yourself. And I did not say Benny was a false prophet, rather
that he has prophesied falsely. To call him a false prophet and write him off
is judging him and we are not to do that.
I.M. Ulysses reply to Lorraine You're really don't read my replies,
do you? I'm getting really tired of repeating myself, and yes, a little angry
at your little dodges in defense of a false prophet like Benny Hinn.I see now
that no matter what Scripture I present you, you will continue to find ways to
defend this false and twisted man. Your last comment shows your own blindness
" And I did not say Benny was a false prophet, rather that he has
prophesied falsely. To call him a false prophet and write him off is judging
him and we are not to do that" OK. HOW MANY TIMES CAN HE PROPHESY FALSELY
BEFORE YOU BELIEVE HE IS A FALSE PROPHET? How many 'failed' or false miracles
do you need to read evidence of to realize he has no gifting? Clearly not
enough. You even saw the undercover video from the Fifth Estate and STILL you
defend this evil twisted man? How can you do that? How can you defend this wolf
in sheep's clothing in to the church, succor his falsehoods, makes false and
unbiblical defenses of him, and then call yourself a Christian 'Spirit filled'
woman? The Bible clearly states that we are to MARK THEM that walk contrary to
the faith and sound doctrine (Romans 16:17). By pointing out that Benny Hinn is
a fraud I am merely obeying Paul's command; you aren't. You are so determined
that this well-documented fraud IS legit that you ignore and twist scripture to
defend him and that breaks my heart. Now you are also making excuses for your
lapse in understanding the verses you quoted. You just said " I never said
Jesus could not heal. That's absurd. But he only did what he was told to do by
His(our) Father in heaven. Jesus never operated independently of the Father.
The Scripture I quoted says "he healed a FEW." BUT when I quoted you
above you said "And No-Jesus did not always heal everyone who came to him
as it states in Mark 6:5-6" - your words! I don't know what you mean by 'a
few' NOW when you said before that 'Jesus did not always heal' WHEN HE DID. I
do not believe you have rightly divided the scripture and are, as always,
trying to make excuse for this false prophet. Now you compound your errors
AGAIN by saying, above that "And nowhere does it say that the apostles
healed everyone or that only apostles can heal." WE NEVER READ where the
Apostles DID NOT heal. WE only read where they DID heal, except in the case
where THEIR lack of faith required the young girl to be brought to Jesus. The
rest is speculation on your part which you try to present as truth to defend
this false prophet Benny Hinn. And no, I am not concerned with my soul by calling
this CLEARLY FALSE PROPHET for what he is; that is what we all should do
because they are fleecing the flock and deceiving many. I am more concerned
with yours and those he has deceived; sincerely but BLIND people who WILL NOT
accept the evidence before them, will twist scripture to makes excuses for guys
like him, and have no discernment despite claiming to be 'spirit filled.' I am
truly astounded and grieved in my spirit that you could do such a thing. I am
also tired of trying to shed light on the obvious when you just go off in your
own 'space' and ignore my words. Fine. I'm done with it. You go on believing
lies since that is evidently what God has willed for you to believe. That said,
I'm sure you're a fine woman, with a kind heart, and a genuine belief in
Christ, though one tainted with a lack of discernment. If we ever meet in
person, I will embrace you as a sister in Christ too and maybe we can have a
really good conversation about this stuff over coffee or at Ginger's place some
day. But I will NEVER believe that Benny Hinn is no more than a fraud, as all
evidence suggests. AS for John MacArthur, I don't really follow his doctrines,
certainly not to the letter. I am a Calvinist as I have said and a
soft-cessationist too; meaning I believe that there are still Spiritual Gifts
but am also convinced I have not seen ANY in the real biblical sense of the
word. I would embrace them if I did. I certainly have not seen any from the
false prophet Benny Hinn, nor in any of the charismatic churches I attended. By
the same token, I am not looking for them either; my concern is sound doctrine,
not 'miracles.' MacArthur has many good teachings; even you must agree with
that. But I disagree with his stance on the Pre-Trib Rapture, and even question
his views on End Times as well. I am also against Dispensationalist ideas
(founded by John Nelson Darby) and prefer Covenant Theology. Those are not
salvation issues, mind you, so I have little problem those who support them.
These notions are, therefore, my 'summer house' ideas, the place where I like
to go to play around with what I see as non-issues. Free Will, Pre-Trib
Rapture, Dispensationalism, though I may disagree, are great for coffee-talk
and philosophical discussions over a lemonade on a back porch during the summer
months, or on a long drive. FALSE PROPHETS, like Benny Hinn, however, get my
blood boiling and rightfully so. Here's one more video, which you will not
watch and even if you do, will find a way to skirt around, for your amusement.
I will not respond to any more posts from you here because it is evident that
you will continue to believe in lies, despite the evidence. Friend me if you
want, Lorraine, however, and maybe we can talk in private about this. I'm sure Ginger
is also tired of all these posts too. Bye for now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_5-ZTvmHSc
Ginger comment to I.M. Ulysses Well, if I had any friends, they are sure to
abandon me now. Thanks Ulysses
I.M. Ulysses reply to Ginger Hey, Ginger, I adore you. You
probably already know how strident I can be...and I know it gets the best of me
at times. But I stand on Scripture and I'll fall on that too if I do not stand
correctly. WE all make mistakes. But this is also why I refuse to make wild
claims about my spirituality or my faith. I'm just an ordinary schlep, with my
own failings too, like anyone else. But there is a big gulf between making an
error in doctrine and standing up and making unsubstantiated claims...and then
repeating them the way certain so-called ministers do. I do believe in
miracles; I am one, and you are too. But 'faith healers'? Like I said, I'll
believe it when I see it and it can be substantiated by credible sources. There
is nothing wrong with that; it's part of testing the spirits. When they fail,
you walk away and/or name them as Paul instructed us to do. But these may be
the times, too, when people give up sound doctrines and chase after fables. It's
not the first time it's happened, though. The 1800's saw the introduction of
Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and all manner of
deceptive ideas such as evolution too. it's part of freedom I guess. But with
this freedom comes the responsibility to stand up for Jesus and sound doctrine.
We must not be lead astray by false teachers and false notions, simply because
they 'feel' right. We must "...be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will
come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall
they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away
their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (2 Timothy
4:2-4)
IF a 'faith healer' arrives, we must be no less to do the same to him or her. Likewise if some comes speaking a new doctrine or a variation of it, we must likewise put them to the test. The devil is very sly, that is perhaps why he is described as a serpent or snake. He makes us question what we know is sound and by small steps wishes to lead us away to the destruction reserved for himself and those damned. It may be why Jesus tells us to "...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16). These false teacher enjoy ripping apart the weak and the sincere, "For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3: 6-7).
Just a though hon. Anyways, let us know when we can get together again. Halloween is upon us, and so is the effective 'start' of winter too and within a week or so, the Christmas FUSS starts again. Oooh. joy. Ok...I like it but I am so glad when it is done too. God bless.
IF a 'faith healer' arrives, we must be no less to do the same to him or her. Likewise if some comes speaking a new doctrine or a variation of it, we must likewise put them to the test. The devil is very sly, that is perhaps why he is described as a serpent or snake. He makes us question what we know is sound and by small steps wishes to lead us away to the destruction reserved for himself and those damned. It may be why Jesus tells us to "...be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16). These false teacher enjoy ripping apart the weak and the sincere, "For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3: 6-7).
Just a though hon. Anyways, let us know when we can get together again. Halloween is upon us, and so is the effective 'start' of winter too and within a week or so, the Christmas FUSS starts again. Oooh. joy. Ok...I like it but I am so glad when it is done too. God bless.
